Ganed Ramesh Patel yn Kibibi ym 1937. Daeth ei dad – Manibhai Patel – i Uganda ym 1912 wrth i’r rheilffyrdd ddod i ben, ac ymunodd mam Ramesh ag ef yn 1916, gan sefydlu ‘Kibibi General Stores’ yn ddiweddarach.  

Mae Ramesh yn cofio’n annwyl am ei ‘Guru’ cyntaf – Rajabali Tarabhai – a ddysgodd i ‘gyfrif i ddeg’, a ‘Kacodo’ – gyrrwr ei dad – a oedd yn arfer dod â danteithfwyd banana wedi’i stemio, stwnsh, iddo bob wythnos.  

Ym 1946 neu 1947, penderfynodd ei dad symud y teulu i Kampala ar ôl i un o'u siopau gael ei losgi'n ulw yn ystod terfysgoedd.  

Bu'n gweithio yn y diwydiant te ac yna daeth yn gynrychiolydd gwerthu yswiriant ceir. Wrth weithio, mae'n cofio sgyrsiau a oedd yn arwydd o ansicrwydd gwleidyddol i Asiaid Uganda.

O ganlyniad, gadawodd Uganda ym mis Rhagfyr 1971, ac yn y pen draw cychwynnodd siopau cyfleus gyda’i ‘Taru’ yng Nghaerffili, Trelái a Senghenydd.

Trawsgrifiad o gyfweliad gyda Ramesh Patel gan Robin Chaddah-Duke a Radha Patel

Ramesh Patel: Name is Ramesh Patel, born in Kibibi, Uganda, East Africa and birth date is 06.03.1937

Born in Uganda. Came to Kampala back around 1947 / 48. My first school was Sanatan Mandir in Kampala, followed by Kololo primary school. And then ended up in Old Kampala Secondary School. It was one of the lucky ones who went to school at a later stage, but I had an advantage of jumping educational years. So, my first guru I can say who was Rajabali Tarbhai, member of the ‘Wara’ family who had a coffee factory opposite our shop in Kibibi. And of course, being at that time, one of the baby - baby boy - he pampered me and he was single at that time, so he taught me 12345678910, he pampered me so, of course, if you have been pampered one always looks with love and affection to the person who pampers you. That was natural. And of course, I mean, I started my school at age of literally gone 8. Anyway, I joined Sanatan Mandir in my first year there, within six months, I was promoted from 1 to 3. From standard 1 to standard 3. And then I went to Old Kampala School - no Kololo school - primary school. I studied for a year and then from 3 I went straight to 5 and finished my primary 6 there went to Old Kampala. And six years down there till I finished my Senior Cambridge in Kampala.

And after that, I joined the tea industry. I wanted to be a doctor, but there was no chance I could be a doctor. Anyway, I got opportunity to join the tea industry. And my profession was making tea out of leaves. So anyway, I worked there, Salama, for…from 1957 till 1960. And in ‘61 I was transferred, promoted to Moigetty company that was in Western region, foothills of Mount Rwenzori. And I was promoted as an administrative assistant. And of course, I was there for till 1960 - end of 1968. That was, well, that was and probably is still the biggest tea estate in African continent. As acreage all in one piece, instead of split it all over the place, all over surrounding areas. And then I joined car insurance - General Car Insurance limited. Which were representing 27 manufacturers - international manufacturers, Canadians, Americans and British. And of course, my job I was a sales representative my title, our sales representative. I had the opportunity to go around whole of Uganda. All the government departments and all the motor traders and all the big organisation. I used to be something like 3 weeks outside Kampala, only one week in Kampala itself. Otherwise I was just travelling around. And of course, by that time Idi Amin had taken over. Since I was going around, I had an opportunity to get insight as to what's happening. When I got sort of fore picture that it's not going to be good for Asians to be in the country. And I came to UK on Christmas Day of 1971. And of course, having moved straight from tropical country to the cold country on Christmas Day, I suffered flu for… I was in bed for about 3 weeks. Anyway, I got an opportunity as soon as I was OK, I got opportunity to join motor trade - WH Perry Limited were agents for Ford Vehicles. And I was with them for near enough five years.

Robin: Could we bring you back to Christmas Day. Could you remember any of the decorations? What people were doing? Do you remember it being - were you quite surprised when you got off the plane?

Ramesh Patel: It was nice Christmassy atmosphere. Singing and hearing Christmas carols and all sorts of things. And of course I remember, we went to Oxford Circus, which was a good experience that time. But, I would think now it would be a completely different thing. It would be sort of busy, but not the sort of, how can you say? It wouldn't have spiritual feeling in it, it's now much more commercial rather than spiritual. But can’t criticize - we enjoyed, neighbours were good and good atmosphere. But like I said, I was much more the village boy, not a city boy. So decided to come to Cardiff, so I was here in July of ‘77, I moved to Cardiff. Came to Wales July 1977, Castle Park, Caerphilly and had a shop there till, I had to shop and then again I had an opportunity to have another shop in Senghenydd. So around ‘79 I started another shop in Senghenydd . So we were running, Taru was running Caerphilly and I was running Senghenydd till 1983. We sold Caerphilly shop and with the proceeds of that shop we bought a house in Glenfield - the bungalow which I showed you, we bought that one and I was in Senghenydd  until 1985.

In 1985 I joined postal organisation - post office - became post master and moved to Ely. 1985 / 86 February we started the post office. And I was there till of course we were there…we sold, I didn't sell - Senghenydd shop I gave it to my younger brother in 1987, I gave it to him. And totally concentrated on Ely post office. Oh, we enjoyed we had good neighbours. Of course, being a postmaster and dealing with the younger, younger generation wasn't easy, but we managed. And although the Ely is supposed to be the ‘rough’ area. But believe me, we enjoyed, we had the best protection from so-called ‘drunkards’. Yeah, they're - they've been very, very good to us. Because, if any of those regulars if they saw some outsiders come in the shop and try to make a fuss, they would come in and take the fellow out gently get him involved in some sort of conversation and take him out. So we were well looked after. One thing I can…again I must say that…1992…when the BAPS organisation was in the process of inaugurating Neasden Temple. Taru – my wife – she was making collections for the temple. And the support response we had from the public was amazing. I mean, as soon as we told them that it’s going to the temple, every penny would help, and they were very generous. They did contribute in a good amount, I would say. Of course, that was a good life and back well, we enjoyed the millennium 1999. That was a yeah, a sort of history, where people really enjoyed the Millennium Year - good gathering everywhere in Cardiff and in UK - in London.

Radha:  So in terms of Uganda, I guess. Could you tell us a bit more. You said that when you were working you had the chance, like Idi Amin had come in and you had the chance to kind of understand more about what the situation was going to be like for Asians. Could you tell us a bit more about the things that you were hearing

Ramesh Patel:

Like I said, childhood was very exciting. School life we enjoyed good sports. Biking was my favourite hobby. We used to go to Entebbe once on Sundays, not every Sunday now and then. Ride bike up to Entebbe in the morning, come back in evening 22 miles. But it was good – enjoyed. And, of course, I went to Fort Portal. Even then, we used to go to…. We had a CN Patel, who had a shop, good shop in the foothills of Kilembe Mines, the surroundings of the Kilembe Mines - the trading sector was known as Kasese. And we used to go there now and then, and of course we used to have a good chat with the workers, their executives seniors and so more or less we get a rough idea what was happening in Kilembe Mines. At the same time on the right hand side of that Fort Portal, you drive to Bwamba which was around 30 miles. And there's a little village Bwamba.  And just before Bwamba - 2-3 miles before Bwamba - there were hot water springs on the right hand side of the road. And, on the left, water a good stream running like a waterfalls coming from the heels of the slope. So you can enjoy a good steam bath or steam, sticky atmosphere and then have a shower on the other side. It was good. Our favourite hobby was that when brothers and sisters, nephews and nieces and they all came used to buy sweet potatoes or corn on the cobs or the fresh veg, tie them on a string and leave them in the - because you get the boiling water steam - so leave it there for 15 minutes and after that, the fruit is nice and salty, boiled. So enjoy it. Oh, it was a great life, very great life. Now I think I believe that that area is now encircled and they corridored it, there is a sort of small hotel there. So now you can go there, but you pay. There's a fee for it, whereas we enjoyed it free of charge. And then of course, I finished my employment. I left to my Moingetty Company around 68 / 69 and joined Car Insurance General. And that's where I got a chance to observe the political side. And like I said, I had an opportunity to visit most of the government minister, works depots and big shopkeepers dealing in either motor trade or automotive trade or motorcycle trade or big garages. So when we talk, we talk everything, social, political, general talk, but then you get hints. So what's going on? And apparently at that time, President Obote was toppled. The government was taken over by Idi Amin. Strange enough, when he took over, I was in Mbale - 150 miles from Kampala. And it was a nightmare to come back to Kampala, but lucky enough our host - they had, well, we had a connection with the government - so it was arranged that we would join the military convoy who were coming from Mbale to Kampala. So we were part of the convoy and lucky enough we reach Kampala safely. And I thought, well, that is enough life is not going to be that good. So I carried on and apparently I managed to come back. I decided to leave Uganda and then came to UK, on Christmas Day of 1971.

Radha: OK, So what were the things that you were hearing in conversations with those ministers? When you said that you were having conversations, what kinds of things were they saying? You said that you were getting hints. Yeah.

Ramesh Patel: Well, you know, obviously Obote – Amin was a dictatorial. Strange enough when I was at Salama, his cousin, who was a foreman in the tea factory, because I was in charge of the factory, his cousin named Juma Farajallah, I still remember the name. He was his cousin and he used to visit him occasionally. So, I had a chance to see him in face – in person. And the funny thing of him I can say is that he had a dual personality. If he's in good terms with you, he would behave like a little kid, very, very friendly. But, as the history said, he had another side as well, where he can be extremely rude. And of course, then he decided - his decision, his expelling all the Asians from Uganda. But I mean in this case, as far as my observation is - maybe I could be even wrong as politics is a subject no one speaks the truth. But, he came to Uganda -  he came to UK - because UK government was giving them grant every year, which hadn't - they hadn't had it for two years. So, he came to Uganda - he came to UK to collect the grant, which was released by, then I think it was a Conservative government. And on his way back, he went to Libya and Colonel Gaddafi gave him, I think it was 5 million either pounds or dollars or whatever, with the condition that he should kick all the Asians out, which he did.

Robin: And you heard that before the expulsion happened. You heard about him visiting Gaddafi.

Ramesh Patel: No, I heard that story when I came here.

Radha: So, why do you think that Idi Amin wanted to kick the Asians out of Uganda?

Ramesh Patel: Yeah, because it was Gaddafi's condition that - in fact he fulfilled the condition because Gaddafi gave him more than what British government had, which was due to be collected from British government. But, of course, the British government didn’t release the fund. But the Gaddafi gave him so with the condition that - kick the Asians out. So that's what he did.

The thing is in in East Africa…. the situation with…. if you take example of Kenya, Kenya was directly controlled and ruled by English community. The Asians, they were there, but they didn't have much because the commerce was still controlled by the white community, whereas in Uganda it was the opposite. The government was run - because in Uganda it was a protectorate government. So the government was run when the Kabaka was there - in Kenya Kabaka was, there wasn't any king, whereas in Uganda the king was there, King -  Oh, what was his name? In Fort Portal, it was King Omukama. Whereas in Uganda, it was Kabaka. Which is King…Kabaka. His occupance – his palace was in Mengo.

And obviously, Obote overthrew him and Obote was thrown out by Idi Amin. And of course, as much as he might have had a good intention, but it didn't work out well because. Although the although the cash capital and properties were left behind. The community there at that level wasn't ready to take over and apparently things... I wouldn't say it went sort of uncontrollable because, at that…during those during Asians being in Uganda, the commerce was run - all the big industries and factories they were run by Indians - owned and run by Indians. So, the government, white government, Asian commerce and native local force - of course they were in partnership as well…promoted. But Idi Amin decided to take everything too fast. Plus, political angle was there because of Gaddafi, so he decided to kick them all out. Or even could be on the hind side, it could be possible that the British Government could have given in, but apparently here the government didn't give in. Which I remember Mr Callaghan was asked to go to Uganda to negotiate. And of course, Mr Callaghan was a good negotiator. But apparently, he either didn’t negotiate properly with him or…result is that Indians were kicked out.

The government departments were controlled by the white community. And of course, the business stuff, business - commerce. Whether you take rural areas, little towns or cities. The big industries they were in control of Indians. Whether it's a motor trade or cotton trade or coffee trade, although the government was in power. The actual running of the industry was controlled by the Asians. And, apparently, I suppose he wanted the whole kick by himself and it didn’t work out. So, obviously he was overthrown by Museveni and President Museveni recalled some of the Asians and some of them went back. Like in our case, we had some properties but we didn't go back. We left everything behind, and there are some people who went to get, to claim their properties, but they had to compensate to those people. So basically it was like taking a derelict building, which wasn't maintained, plus compensate those people. So when seeing that sort of things, I said no, it’s no point going back, but some people went back and they stayed there. But I haven’t been back. Although I got my younger brother is in Uganda even now, but he's – even now he’s retired and he's thinking of coming back.

Robin: Yeah. We wanted to ask firstly how your parents came to Uganda and then?

Ramesh Patel: My father Manibhai Patel. He came to Uganda in 1912. But prior to that, I'm not sure which year, he got aboard a boat. His intention was to come to East Africa, but he ended up in the Far East, Malaysia and all sorts of places. So, he decided to come back and then he got another boat and landed in…came to, of course, East Africa. And by that time the railway lines had just been finished, been installed and he came to Uganda. And he was in Kampala and then apparently decided to settle in Kibibi, which is 37 miles from Kampala. My mother joined him in 1916. My mother joined him in 1916 yeah, and of course thereafter we had a shop in Kibibi. And I still remember the name of the shop Kibibi General Stores. Later on, my uncle, my father's younger brother, he joined, and my auntie. And we were running a good business. Eventually, family, friends were all invited to settle down in surrounding areas including Radha’s father and uncle - Chandubhai and Raojibhai. They were settled…they settled in Kiriri. And of course, on the other side we had Ambalal settled in… it just went off my mind, starts ‘K’ anyway. I was born in 1937 and childhood was in Kibibi.

Around ‘46 / ‘47 there was rioting in Uganda. Well, yeah. And we had, apart from our shop, we had a little store as well…couple 100 yards... yeah few 100 yards away across the road and apparently, some of the stuff was in the store and that was all burned down, well all the stores were burned down, the godowns were burned down by the rioters. And then father then decided the right, I think it's time we moved now that we were all growing up, father decided to move back to Kampala. He had just finished…built up a house, we moved there around Nakivubo Stadium. And, well, we were altogether five brothers and seven sisters, out of which my eldest brother and second eldest sister. My uncle, youngest uncle, he decided to go back to India, so they went with him. So – Kalidas Kaka - my youngest uncle. My brother Jayantibhai and my sister Shardaben - they went to India so they grew up in India. So we were left 10. And of course, my eldest sister, she was she married and she settled in Nakuru. Then elder sister Kumudben - they all studied, we all studied in Uganda - Kampala rather. And Kumud she went, she got married, she settled in Jinja. Same thing, Saroj, she married and she settled again in Jinja. Then Sumitra, my younger sister, she got married and she settled in Busia. Which was literally a boundary village to Kenya. Unfortunately, she died in miscarriage in 1960. Then, the younger sister Pramila she married in Kampala and her in laws they owned the chain of all the Odeon cinemas throughout the whole of East Africa. Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania, all the Odeon cinemas, they were owned by them. Now funny thing is that the name Odeon has got a very good relation with me because. My sister’s in laws, they owned all the Odeon cinemas except Nakuru. Nakuru Odeon cinema was owned by my wife's father, my in laws in partnership with another two fellows. So basically Odeon Cinema was more or less linked with the family.

Then the youngest sister Kusum she married in Kampala. And the brother-in-law, he worked for…he was in the hardware business, builders, traders. He was in Kampala then he moved to London with exodus, they all came to UK. How many? Kumud, Saroj - they went straight into the camps. But Pramila and Kusum, as soon as it was announced that they were been expelled, they had the British passport, so they came straight away. They left Uganda and they came while I was living in West Harrow. And apparently they were with us for about four or five days. And lucky enough we managed to get a house between Canton and Wembley. So they moved there. And then eventually, lucky enough, before long, they all got jobs. And since… my elder sister Saroj, she went South London. She got - they got a job around Tooting Bec - they went there. My brother in law he got a job with the British Railways. And Hasmukh he got employment in some furnishing company. Rajini, the youngest brother-in-law, he got employment one of the builders merchant. And eventually later on, they all started their own businesses.

 And like in my case, well, brothers among brothers, my eldest brother decided to go, went back to Uganda. President Museveni was recalling Asians, so my brother, my brother, went back to Uganda. Because he already had properties at that time. He looked after the properties. I didn't want to go. Gansham, younger brother, he went to Bristol. He was working for one of these tyre manufacturers. He went so he was working from A1 tyres or something like that. He was
working for them. And Satish he was…he stayed in London. He was working for one of the 2nd hand car dealers, so he stayed with them. And the youngest, Narendra, he was working for NatWest National Bank in Islington. And that's it.

Radha: Can you tell us about your wife and how you met?

Ramesh Patel: My marrying Taru, it was an arranged wedding and apparently when she came to UK, she was working for Barclays. I forgot the name of the branch anyway, she was near enough the Square Mile area, you know the financial area she was there. And she kept working till we decided to come to Wales so she left the job and we all moved to Wales. And -  ‘77 we moved in Wales then. And ‘79, as I said, I decided to open another shop in Senghennydd. So she was running shop from ‘77, Caerphilly shop from ‘77 to ‘83.

Radha: Did you? Did you have any children? Do you have any children?

Ramesh Patel: No. I don't have any children, but I've got 42 nephews and nieces, so we don't miss them. We don't miss them. They keep in touch. They keep in touch. They're very close.

Radha: You said that you came to UK in 1971. Yeah. Do you remember then the announcement, or do you remember hearing about Ugandan Asians being expelled?

Ramesh Patel: No, I had a phone call from my sister saying that…I think Idi Amin announced it on Saturday about expelling Asians from… it was a stadium, I forgot the name of the stadium where he announced it was… if you come out of Kampala, on the right side, there is an industrial area - on the left, there is a stadium there and that's where he announced that he was expelling Asians. He gave them three months to leave Uganda. So Saturday it was announced, and Sunday my phone rang in the morning and my sister was on the line saying that British that – that Idi Amin has announced to expel he Asians. So, they asked me to look for a house. So we say well try to leave as soon as you can, so lucky enough they left on Monday the very following day. Because the family I was living with,  although I was a paying guest, but I had built up a very good relation. So the aunty said let them come, we'll sort things out don't worry. So Kusum and Pramila they came - the sisters, only they came with their children. They came to….they stayed at West Harrow with us for about a week and in meantime we managed to hire, to rent a house. And we moved, we moved there. And of course, the brother in laws – Hasmukh he went as far as Russia before he could come to UK. Rajini he came straight, he was in camp. And the two sisters, they were in a camp  - Saroj and Kumud - They were in a camp. Kumud she was in the camp in in Wales, and she was given house in Maes Y Capel. Saroj, she went to London and they got house in Tooting Bec. And they got - she got work, I think she got work for some factories Hoover or some... not Hoover, manufacturing some electrical products. So she was working there and brother-in-law went and worked for British Rail. And that's it.

Robin: OK, great. I wanted to go back to Uganda again. So you know, you say your family and lots of the Asians, they had lots of control over businesses, the commerce. I was interested then, it sounds like they had quite a good relationship to the British who were in control. What was the relationship like between the Asians and the Black community?

Ramesh Patel: Very good, extremely good. With the locals, because it's strange that although they worked, they’re employed, but it's in Indian culture we never treat them like slaves. They were part of the family member. I gave you an example. I'm talking about our family plus all the friends I know of like, when I was working, well of course I had car. So every evening when I come home at about 5 around 5 o’clock, I come home,  I park my car have wash and then I go for a stroll. Evening walk. And then comes my brother. Same thing. And during Ramadan or any fasting period the house boy, the won’t do the cooking, they will do the cleaning of the house, laundry. Whatever the mother says he would do it. But he would eat what we eat. Nothing to say that he should - he was never treated as a slave. Whatever we ate was his meal. He would, OK - he wouldn't join us on a dining table. But then again, he ate exactly what we had. There's nothing to say that he can't eat this or he can't eat that. Same thing clothes wise. Sometimes we used to buy new clothes. Occasionally there were some other, it doesn't fit or we say, oh, we don't like it buy something and we gave it to him. It's not really torn, but maybe we could have hardly won four or five times and we give it to him. And during Ramadan, when I come the car is there and my younger brother comes home. So the mother tells my younger brother, Gansham take him to his home. So, he had to drive him about four or five miles away, taking him, giving a lift in my car because of the fasting, she won't let him go by bus, so take him in the car. So you have to go and drop him. But the good part was that we never lost a penny in the house. Whether it's a cash or a jewellery or anything, you can leave it -  even when I was in Fort Portal, or when I was in Mwenge I can remember leaving money in my pocket or things in the house.

I would empty the pocket and leave either cash or watch or whatever it is, or any paperwork by the bedside cabinet. I can't remember losing one single thing. And funny enough, when I left the same house boy came and joined me at my home. He came - in fact he left Mwenge and came to Kampala. And he worked with me. I wasn't giving the same amount he was getting in Mwenge. When he was working in Mwenge he was getting 150 shillings. I was giving him 120 in Kampala and I said, look, it's less, why don't you go back? He said. No, I don't want to go back. I'll stay here. But he preferred it because we treat them like a family. He was practically like a family member.

Robin: I was wondering, do you think outside of you know, the people that you worked with, et cetera, would Ugandans come to functions or anything like that or was? It quite separate.

Ramesh Patel: Like in my view my example, when I was little we had a driver named Casodo. Now, the natives what they do is they cook bananas - the boiled banana, boiled green bananas in a banana leaf. And once it's boiled, they mash it. They mash it and use rock salt. Not the processed salt – rock salt and what they do is you know when you boil cream you get cream.
So they use cream, they put use cream, rock salt and mash it all up. And that was one of my favourite dish, and almost 3-4 times a week Casodo used to bring it especially for me. When he used to come to work, nice and warm. And that used to be my breakfast. So, it’s one of those things that I mean, in my case, I was more pampered by Casodo than my father. Because my father was strict, but Casodo or Rajabali, they pampered me like as if I was their little baby. So it’s things I mean. There are things those were the days where the love was a real love. Now these days it's much more like a commercial, but affection, it's…. maybe Rajabali he didn't have his family there, so he looked at me like his little kid. And he taught me how to behave. Yeah? I had clips at times,  but having said that he was my first teacher who taught me from 1-10.  And he told me how to ride a bike. And funny enough, he wasn’t short of money because he owned the coffee factory. He was owner of the coffee factory, which I would think said that he was richer than us at that time. And, but it it's one of those things. Sometimes you are lucky enough you don't know, but now I realised that I was one of the lucky ones who grew up in that situation where, although I went late to school, but then again I only stayed 8-9 years in my life. Out of 12 -13 years, my educational period was only 8 1/2 years. From top to bottom - from bottom to top. Again then again, with natures blessing, I got good employment. Came here, I mean, although I wasn't kicked out, but when I came to UK I had £12 in my pocket.

Now I've got a good house of my own. Kept paying all the due taxes to the government and I'm enjoying my retirement. So what else do you want? A nice peaceful life which I'm enjoying it  -second life rather. I can say that things could be better. But I've got no…nothing to moan about. There are people who are worse off than me, so I guess I am a lot better than someone who either more physically disabled or mentally distorted or anything as such, no. Nature hasn't put me in that situation, thank God. Plus, I'm having good friends around Cardiff, of Asian community, white community. In fact, it was the white community. It was the Welsh who took me to the hospital, otherwise I would have been gone from this planet hadn’t even rang for the ambulance. It's one of those things. Good deeds, please, when maybe if I done something good unknowingly.

Robin: So if you could just tell us a little bit about why you decided to move from London to Wales.

Ramesh Patel:  Well, I think I remember saying that my life has always been a peaceful village type life. Because having worked on tea estate, which was out of civilization. We came to London, of course, at that time we had responsibility to get the brothers and sisters settled. When I had an opportunity in ‘77 when I visited Wales on a couple of occasions to see my sister, I could see the atmosphere nice and quiet, peaceful. So I decided to move to Wales and July ‘77 I moved in Caerphilly Castle Park, Caerphilly started my shop.

Radha: What did you? Did you ever make any - I guess I wonder why Wales? Why not Scotland, or why not a different part of England?

Ramesh Patel: Oh, I've been to Scotland as well.

Radha: Why not a different part of England? Like what was it? I guess. What did you hear? Was there anything that you heard about Wales that you thought? OK, that's the place that we want to live or? Did you ever make trips?

Ramesh Patel: I remember going to Scotland around ‘75 / ‘76. I enjoyed the people were good. It was, I remember funny incidents when we went to Edinburgh - landed in…we decided to stay in a guest house, bed and breakfast. I had a wash and then went up towards the castle. And my friend, Sashi, he thought let's go and have a pint. So we went in the pub. And it was the first time I was surprised. As we go in the pub, the ladies were on one side and the boys on the other side. Like being in Indian community, like Indian going to temple, ladies on one side boys – gents on the other side. That’s the thing I've noticed in Edinburgh. Anyway, we stayed overnight so. Good people, they are very friendly. Of course, we went by car, so I was here. We were enjoying this sort of local hospitality. Racial hospitality wherever we went. Good or -  some were appreciative, some were bad. But then again, it's typical English mentality always looked down on someone who's not as clear – who’s not as white as you are. 

Radha: And when you moved to Wales, what was the difference in people?

Ramesh Patel: Oh I came to Wales. When we came to Wales. Strange enough, the car radiator developed a leak. Now having been in the motor industry, it was easy -  we took the radiators out. And one of our neighbour - one of my sister's neighbour drove us up to Cardiff. We went on to Halfords. Got the part radiator - exchange radiator, but then the way we were respected, talked to the people and treated in Cardiff was completely different than London. So it was sort of instant love at first sight that I'm going to settle in Cardiff.

Robin: And how was it different? What was the difference between London and?

Ramesh Patel: Well, behaviour - friendliness of the people, friendliness of the local community. Now, like I said, we were drove up to Edinburgh so we were more or less going - driving through the Midlands everywhere. We went towards going - we went toward on the western side. We were coming back towards eastern side. So it was like visit… we're going the whole nation. So we were having all sorts of experience. So we were enjoying the local hospitality whether look up or look down. Friendliness of all kinds. But like I said, we were not all that dull. We know what is right and what's wrong because I didn't come here as a baby, I come here as a grown up person, so I was able to judge what's right and what's wrong, what's good and what's bad.

I decided I could see the goodness of the Wales and goodness, and the friendliness of Welsh people and decided to settle in Wales and I've got no second doubt about it. I will lead a happy life. I haven't any – I  haven't had any problem of any kind so far. I haven't been abused, assaulted or anything as such. And I'm enjoying my life in here. I'm enjoying my retired life. I got good neighbours. And I'm still enjoying friendly atmosphere. Which I can hardly say for either London or any part of the London to that extent.

Robin: I think if we just have a little flick through, if that's OK, but your answers have been really good and in-depth. 

Radha: This has been so incredible, this conversation.

Ramesh Patel: Well, you can still if there is anything else.

Robin: I think we've got this kind of stuff. Done that. And yeah, doesn't seem yeah. So should we ask the kind of?

Ramesh Patel: But even then, if there is anything else we can always talk in general terms, if there is anything not yeah, not as a personal interview, but Ramesh Patel as a general person.
I mean, I believe you're going to talk to Prakash, isn't it? And so we'll get to - if there is anything we can talk it in general terms. Because after all, it affects the general Asian community – doesn’t it? It doesn’t have to be me as Ramesh Patel.

Robin: No, it doesn't. It doesn't. That's fine. Well, we were going to ask – well, you can answer it as a community, maybe something we've been asking for everyone that's taking part is how would you sum up your journey from expulsion? So not for expulsion for you, but having to leave somewhere because you felt unsafe and then coming to Wales and establishing yourself here.

Ramesh Patel:
Here in short, I can say one thing. That we weren't handed things on a plate. We earned it. Compared to what the refugees are getting these days, we didn’t. Asian Community, Asian refugees they were never been accommodated in a hotel like they're getting now. We never had all sorts of benefits they’re having now no. So we earned everything we got. Even as refugees, we earned ourselves. Of course, when we came well, part of my family came, of course, the human decency was that they were given shelter, good shelter, no doubt, but livelihood they had to earn it hard way - very hard way. Because the racial, don't forget the racial... UK especially, so-called English mentality of being a colonial ruler had never looked on Asians as their friends, they always looked them as slaves. Or rather, second class citizens. But then having said that, we proved that we are capable, we are able, capable of taking responsibilities. We give respect, we take and of course we give respect and in return we do expect return, if not a lot, a little.

Robin: Lovely. And you know, you speak about the racism and things do you have, do you wanna share any experiences? Not necessarily yourself, friends or family. Things they might have found hard when they first arrived?

Ramesh Patel: Living in Ely, there's so much to say. But then again, lucky enough it hasn't been say direct, on couple occasions, yes. But then again it was part and parcel of the responsibility as a postmaster when you ask a youngster can I have your identity and proof of identity. And he says you’re this, that blah, blah, blah. And I just say, you shut up. I tell them point blank. I said look, I'm not your father's slave. This is my financial responsibility. And I tell them if your own gyro got lost, and it was cashed by someone else, what would you say? The first thing you would say, why didn't someone check the identity? Well, that's exactly what I'm doing now. Sometimes they use it in... they say they use the word also and they go off and then the moment they go out of the office, some people will correct them that he was wrong, so when he comes back again, we don't, I wouldn't hold that thing, that conversation I would start from scratch. Till’ he misbehaves, then I give him mindful. I always - I never kept taking. If anyone gave me an abuse, I give them a mouthful back. I have never taken any abuse from anyone. I wouldn't give. I won't abuse anyone, especially I won't give any personal remark to anyone. But then, having said that, I won't take any abuse from anyone. That's one thing Robert has taught me nicely. That make sure you are right.

Robin: OK, great. That was good. Anything else from you Radha?

Radha: I don't have anything else unless you wanted to share more about the friends that you made in Wales.

Ramesh Patel:

Friends. Yeah, good. Very good friends. The real friends I got to know when Taru died. And then even besides Taru died, of course. There were a couple of young ladies who more or less said…showed their displeasure for their benefits. To get their benefit and Taru said look – I need I.D  or this or that and they abused. But, strange enough she died and the very same person came after the event. I'm sorry I misbehaved with Mrs Patel this blah, blah blah. So I said it’s  OK. Fine. Now that was it. No hard feelings. But you get people  to say they're, although they say they come back to correct this, to rectify the situation. You would hardly find those sort of things happening in London. And same thing as when I suffered my leg ulcers for eight years from 2010 till 2017 / 18. And of course, although I was suffering, I decided to keep going because it was the responsibility was keep me - make me forget my aches and pains. But then again, I used to go for shopping in evening and then when I come back, any passer by, customer say, hey man, I'll give you a hand and they used to help me to unload the car. So, I mean. Although I lived in a roughest so-called rough area, I enjoyed the best of their good side. So what else one can say? I can't say that for things in London. No way. You go in London, they won’t, even if you're walking in the street, they try to look down on you. For no reason. Just because you are brown and he is white. But that's life.